[16:33] --> You have joined the channel #hh.org-bs (n=bflong@216-164-162-138.pa.subnet.cable.rcn.com). [16:33] *** brown.freenode.net sets the channel mode to 'no messages from outside'. [16:33] *** brown.freenode.net sets the channel mode to 'secret'. [16:33] *** Channel modes: secret, no messages from outside [16:33] *** This channel was created on 06/01/2007 04:33:58 PM. [16:34] --> polyonymous has joined this channel (n=hacker@pD953BB28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de). [16:34] bs as in bullshit? [16:34] yep [16:34] well, you're still sane then :) [16:34] with lawyers, it's almost always bullshit [16:35] indeed. [16:35] --> Crofton has joined this channel (n=balister@hc65217eb.dhcp.vt.edu). [16:35] does this channel name stand forwhat I think it means? [16:35] it does. [16:35] I already asked :) [16:35] yes [16:35] --> BabelO has joined this channel (n=Fabrice@lun34-2-82-238-28-28.fbx.proxad.net). [16:36] *** You set the channel topic to "bs is full bullshit". [16:36] *** You set the channel topic to "bs is for bullshit". [16:36] I want to get lorn and some others in here before I start :) [16:36] and BS is german for OS. Go figure... [16:36] ok [16:36] --> chouimat has joined this channel (n=dieu@kde/developer/chouinard). [16:36] welcome chouimat [16:36] ok, I have better things to do [16:36] You want to get lorn? :) [16:37] --> thesing has joined this channel (n=tkunze@BAA2e83.baa.pppool.de). [16:37] yeah. [16:37] welcome thesing [16:37] did I already miss anything? [16:37] no [16:37] as in "lorn, adjective, - having been given up and left alone"? :) [16:38] --> moo has joined this channel (n=shea@soulflower.colorado.edu). [16:38] * polyonymous is making silly jokes because we have time, anyway [16:38] * chouimat wont ... too tired and way too hot in here [16:39] I've got some good news... but I want to wait until lorn is in here. [16:39] --> ljp has joined this channel (n=lpotter@203.94.178.46). [16:39] You need to sacrifice him? [16:39] not exactly [16:39] :) [16:39] maybe just a finger..... [16:39] good news, at last :) [16:39] Well, if he doesn't mind. [16:39] haha [16:39] he seems to be afk [16:40] damnit [16:40] He seems to be here. [16:40] or was it an effect of autojoin on invite? [16:40] ah [16:40] I missed him coming in here ;) [16:40] ljp: you're here now? [16:40] the suspense is killing me [16:41] if he were a lawyer I'd think it's just a kind of reflex. :) [16:41] no lawyers allowed! [16:41] they are shot on site here [16:41] survivors prosecuted. [16:41] * bipolar hates lawyers [16:41] am here now [16:41] cool [16:41] bipolar: I dated one a few month ago ... [16:41] yikes [16:42] aaaanyyyway [16:42] not my sister [16:42] chouimat, did you date Crofton's sister? [16:42] George has agreed to point opie.handhelds.org to my server here in PA [16:42] no [16:42] and move all development to it [16:42] I will be in charge of it. not him [16:42] he wishes he had [16:42] and he will just own it? [16:42] mailing lists, the whole ball of wax [16:43] hmm.. interesting [16:43] no. I will own the server. everything will reside here [16:43] and the name? [16:43] what about the trademark ? [16:43] to hell with the trademark. the lawyers have a hold if it. everyone's hands are tied. [16:44] My only concern is the project [16:44] this is a precurser to a bigger change for hh.org [16:44] how are you going to deal with te trademark though? [16:44] basically, he will use that to beat people [16:44] ljp: not exactly sure yet. but I have the right to use it. [16:44] I don't see what it solves. I didn't know infrastructure on hh.org went down. [16:44] no. [16:45] but getting the infrastructure transfered is a start [16:45] the big issue is that george has too much control. [16:45] So the only problem was the trademark thing, no? [16:45] thats all there is now [16:45] for the project, anyway. [16:45] ljp: I'll need a big favor from you [16:45] ljp, you have to thank George for his generocity. [16:46] publicly, of course. [16:46] ljp: once the domain is moved to my server, I'll need you to move opieII to it. [16:46] ah [16:46] not before it's moved, of course. [16:46] BTW... this was all MY idea [16:46] not george. [16:47] well, I do not see neither good nor bad news here... [16:47] if you havent noticed..opieII is now named OpenPalmtopIntegratedEnvironmentII [16:48] the good news is that this is a start, and the project might be saved by it. [16:48] ljp: well, you can change it back. [16:48] ljp: if you want to. it's mostly a good faith move. [16:48] I only see a migration delay here. The project isn't frozen on HH technically, is it? [16:48] no. but you're only looking at the technical issues [16:49] this is a move for trust [16:49] Who trusts whom? [16:49] exactly [16:49] did he mention any of what the bigger change to hh.org is? [16:49] yes. [16:49] he's going to give up full control, and pass hh.org and the projects to a board of members taken from the community. [16:50] what community? [16:50] ljp: at least 3 people. I recomended 5. [16:50] to start. [16:50] these people will deal with the community issues, not just technical ones. it's a thankless no fun job [16:50] out of what community? hh.org is burning [16:51] out of burning community. [16:51] we're trying to save it. at least I am. [16:51] * ljp still doesnt get how trademarks issue is resolved [16:52] neither I do. I thought the issues aren't technical. [16:52] it's impossible for george to pass the tm to anyone at this time, but eventualty it will be owned in the same way the ubuntu tm is. [16:52] the 'out of our hands' thing is a crock. he hired attorneys to defend trademarks, he can stop them [16:52] well, did he say "I'm sorry", at least? [16:52] ljp: heh... I wish. [16:52] he can also stop the trademark registration as well [16:52] polyonymous: to the project, yet. [16:52] yes [16:53] what do you mean "to the project"? [16:53] ljp: I can't speak for his lawyers. I don't care what they do [16:53] polyonymous: he's upset that the opie project is being damaged. thats it. [16:53] bipolar, I meant sorry for what he's done. [16:54] as in apologies [16:54] polyonymous: at this time it's best not to worry about that. it will just be counterproductive. [16:54] bipolar, I'm just asking. [16:54] polyonymous: I understand. [16:54] --> cbrake has joined this channel (n=cbrake@oh-69-34-21-229.sta.embarqhsd.net). [16:54] there is just too much ego on all sides at this point. [16:55] and my first concern is the Opie project [16:55] Okay, I think I know the answer then. [16:55] Yes, that's the right concern. [16:55] note..... all sides. I take no ones side. [16:55] so... [16:55] Although it may indeed be easier to change the name rather than suffer this humiliation. [16:55] Yes, I noticed all sides. [16:56] what software are you going to use to host it? [16:56] As in "move it from cvs" :)) [16:56] ljp: I've got my own development server. I currently use Trac, but the options are wide open. [16:56] i personally dont care where the hosting is [16:56] ljp: it really is a moot point, yes. but it's a sign of good faith [16:57] we're all geeks here :) [16:57] I do not understand this trust/faith thing. Who's showing the sign? [16:58] i think gf is just pissed its at linuxtogo [16:58] --> mmp has joined this channel (n=mmp@TheWide.ubyt.sdjls.uniba.sk). [16:58] polyonymous: George is, by pointing opie.hh.org to a server he has no control of. Lorn is by moving his opieII project to that nutral server. [16:58] --> hvontres|home has joined this channel (n=hvontres@adsl-75-3-205-36.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net). [16:58] I think you do. He does what he intended to do originally. [16:58] ljp: yes. that is a big part of it, and he's not alone. [16:58] And yes, ljp does as well. [16:58] But his having control has nothing to do with issues at hand. [16:59] the GPE bullshit has spread way to far. [16:59] He has control over opie.hh.org, anyway. [16:59] polyonymous: but I have a 'licence' to use the name. I'll make another domain name to point to it in additon to opie.hh.org. [16:59] it's still all BS, I know [17:00] bipolar, written one, I think? [17:00] I hope [17:00] Well, yes. [17:00] polyonymous: it's on it's way [17:00] That's the point. [17:00] Well, that's good. Although I still see only how *you*'re doing your best to save the project. [17:01] I'm going to request it via snail mail, [17:01] still too much bs in this [17:01] polyonymous: the domain change is a small thing. [17:01] chouimat: yes... see the channel name. it's all BS. [17:01] everything about this issue is BS [17:01] we're up to our necks in it [17:01] bipolar: and I forgot to bring TP with me :) [17:02] lol [17:02] I'd rather leave him with the name. [17:02] at this point, tp is useless. shovels.... [17:02] polyonymous: if we need to change the name in the future it's just as possible then as it is now. [17:02] that's right. [17:03] But that's the story of wrestling with the pig. You can always stop, of course. [17:03] ljp: when the domain is pointed to my server, will you move your opieII project over to it? [17:03] but I think, for instance, for ljp it's easier to change the name right away rather than in the future. [17:04] call it poppy and you're done :) [17:04] and intoxicated too! :) [17:04] polyonymous: well, he could. but that won't help heal the rift in the community. [17:04] don't forget that there are some hh.org opie devs too. [17:04] Well, that's true. [17:04] how about eiop? [17:05] besides, the Opie name is cool :) [17:05] how about eipo? [17:05] and rather well known [17:05] it is, but it's counterproductive to shed any tears about the stolen car:) [17:05] how about the ProjectFormelyKnowAsOpie (PFKAO) ? [17:05] sigh... :) [17:05] :) [17:05] look, we *can* fix this. [17:06] chouimat: nahh, we'd need to come up with a strange symbol...:) [17:06] hvontres|home: OTNG ... and the old one can be OTOS ;) [17:06] also, I'm looking for two more neutral people to sign on as hh.org community board members. this is not immediate, but is comming. [17:07] the pay is good? [17:07] I told George I would sign up as one *if* this rift could be fixed. [17:07] no pay at all [17:07] thankless and full of BS [17:07] copied :) [17:08] the board would have control of the tm, the hh.org name, just about everything. [17:08] Well, I think the successor should be called "entropy" and that would provide for the great future :) [17:08] george would be on it, so you must be ready to bury any animosity you have beneath a good 20ft of good will for the project [17:09] polyonymous: entropie (but that interferes with TM) [17:09] mmp, that's why "y" :) [17:09] polyonymous: I remmber entropy. worked with him a bit [17:09] polyonymous: :-)) [17:09] bipolar: I might sign up ... but will need to think about it [17:10] * ljp researches trac [17:10] bipolar: how would board meetings work? [17:10] trac is pretty coool [17:10] chouimat: as will I. George actualy got permission from mark shuttleworth to use the whole ubuntu system. [17:10] bugzilla is better for bugs [17:10] ljp: trac = svn + python bindings [17:10] but you can link to revs in trac tickets [17:11] * ljp shudders at the thought of python [17:11] ljp http://trac.edgewall.org/ http://trac-hacks.org [17:11] hvontres|home: thats a detail we don't have yet. it's going to be modeled after ubuntu. [17:11] so he wants hh.org to be a distribution [17:11] bipolar: but they would be online, right? [17:11] ljp: no, a comuntiy. thats about it. [17:11] hvontres|home: oh, definatly. [17:11] bipolar: I don't know the ubuntu system [17:12] chouimat: I only know a little bit. I've got homework to do [17:12] bipolar: how much time commitment would there be involved? [17:12] ubuntu is a distribution [17:13] hvontres|home: not entirely sure. once everything is set up, probbly not much at all. [17:13] --> drw|away has joined this channel (n=drw@dirus.hrsmart.com). [17:13] ljp: right. but the code of conduct and everything related to that is what we're talking about [17:13] drw|away: long time no see :) [17:13] ljp: all the non-geek stuff. :) [17:13] hi bipolar! [17:13] it's good to see all the old timers [17:14] :) [17:14] :) [17:14] ljp: I don't really like python all that much, but Trac works really, really well. [17:14] unfortunately under bad circumstances [17:14] So, ljp will have the right to breach george's CoCk on opie lists? [17:14] drw|away: we're trying to make them better. [17:14] *** drw|away is now known as drw. [17:15] polyonymous: no. that kind of thing is against the code of conduct, I'm sure. :) [17:15] ljp: and it's easy to setup ... and you can even use it with other VCS [17:15] bipolar, but you said that opie lists won't be under his control? Or am I wrong about it? [17:15] polyonymous: right. they will be under mine. [17:15] bipolar, then the CoCk will be also yours? [17:15] probably less spam [17:16] polyonymous: but if I get a notice from a laywer saying "thats defamitory" I'm in trouble. :) [17:16] sorry for crossing privacy borders :) [17:16] yeah. /me hates spam [17:16] ah, I see. [17:16] polyonymous: so... all the defamitory stuff must be contained in unlogged IRC [17:16] :D [17:16] Well, we're doomed then. I think geek caught talking to a lawyer should be quarantined. [17:17] polyonymous: I won't be talking to him :P [17:17] my company will. then they will come to me and kick my ass [17:17] see how much I'm sticking my neck out here? [17:17] But george wasn't quarantined and you've talked to him. [17:17] drw: just to bring you up to speed [17:17] what the heck is CoCk? [17:17] Ah, having your ass kicked is still much better than having to talk to a lawyer. [17:18] Crofton, Code of conduckt :) [17:18] heh [17:18] drw: George has agreed to point opie.hh.org to a server I have here where I work. [17:18] drw: mailing lists, site, everything [17:19] bipolar: that's a good start [17:19] ljp: you know, maybe it would be best if you kept the name changed to something else until the whole thing blows over. [17:19] * mmp wishes the same could happen for GPE [17:19] * bipolar is thinking out loud [17:19] mmp: it could, in the future. this is a start. [17:20] Is 'Open Palmtop Integrated Environment' stolen too, or just Opie? [17:20] ljp: I'll have to think more about it. moving the project is more important [17:20] drw: no, thats fine. [17:20] bipolar: err, I'm not sure, it's quite intensive wight at that position... . But I hope it will once... [17:20] s/wight/fight:) [17:21] mmp: when hh.org is not under georges sole control, it can happen if the gpe people want it to. [17:21] * chouimat wonders if he goes to the pub tonight ... [17:22] does everyone think this is a good start? [17:22] Do we have anything to compare it with? [17:23] if anyone has questions they don't want to ask in front of everyone, feel free to /msg me [17:23] maybe .... need to see [17:23] polyonymous: compare? no. I know of nothing like this ever being done. [17:23] Not exactly what I meant. It's like what does it matter if we call it a good or bad start if there's no alternatives. [17:24] the first step will be getting a test domain at hh.org pointed to my server. then a site set up. then moving opie.hh.org to it. [17:24] polyonymous: if the project survives, with the name, it's good. [17:24] bipolar, if. yes. [17:24] I don't think it will survive at all without this. [17:25] I think it either will or won't, the name doesn't matter much. gaim turned into a pidgin and is doing fine. [17:25] nothing can ever be certion, but if we all work for the good of the project it has some hope. [17:25] very true. [17:25] bipolar: so he's agreed to moving the project off of hh.org, but if he is not budging on the trademark issue...what stops him from shutting down your site? [17:25] drw: you missed that part.... [17:26] drw: the lawyers are not lettting him do anything with the tm. but he was able to give me permission to use it for my server and anything on it. I'm getting that in writing [17:26] bipolar: ok, sorry...thanks for the info [17:26] NP. questions are good :) [17:27] I'm also going to work on the chat room nonsence [17:27] going back to just #opie [17:27] I'll get control of it. [17:27] yay! [17:28] good luck [17:28] heh... don't worry. it will happen eventuly. [17:28] well, whatever comes out of it, thank you for your effort. [17:28] aparently I *was* a channel mod there until freenode took over. [17:28] bipolar: so why dosn't GF just fire his lawers and we can all go back to being jus civilized geeks? [17:29] hvontres|home: I wish he would, but not everyone thinks like us geeks. [17:29] since when lawyers think? [17:29] once the lawyers got a hold of you you're doomed. [17:30] --> XorA|gone has joined this channel (n=ndp@www.xora.org.uk). [17:30] It's like that lawsuit in "The Pickwick's Papers" :) [17:30] bipolar: Any clues as to what started GF down the whole path? [17:30] once I have the right to use Opie, in writing, there is nothing they can do. [17:30] hvontres|home: I beleve he meant it for the best. [17:30] bipolar, do they know there's nothing they can do? :) [17:30] wow everyone is here [17:30] hvontres|home: the GPE thing spread into it and festered [17:31] XorA|gone: welcome to the BS pit [17:32] I just finished reading the thread [17:32] *** chouimat is now known as chouimat|away. [17:32] bipolar: heh... well, a public anouncement of his intentions would have gone a long way .... but that's crying over spilled milk.. [17:33] speaking of spilled liquids I need to go pour myself some wine. [17:33] so I missed a chunk has it been amicably resolved? [17:33] brb... phone [17:33] not g.f. :) [17:33] bb in a few minutes ... need to go buy some stuff [17:33] bipolar: It just smelled really fishy: GF as the only officer listed on hh.org,inc paperwork, his name on the app, the whole clandestine addition of the s to the legal page [17:35] * hvontres|home wonders if we should get koen appointed to the board... [17:35] hvontres|home: he's all there really is at hh.org. he could have handled it better though [17:35] hvontres|home: maybe. [17:35] * hvontres|home gets hit by reality [17:36] * ljp wonders how his hands are tied on the tm issue then [17:36] bipolar: did you know he's getting PAID to do end-user support now? [17:36] ljp: lawers suck. [17:37] hvontres|home: I didn't really look into it. all I'm worried about is the project. [17:37] bipolar: was this all GF's idea or did MIT or OSU lean on him at all? [17:37] hvontres|home: it's my idea [17:37] bipolar: no, I meant the original stuff [17:38] hvontres|home: ahh... lawyers. [17:38] lawyers can be fired [17:38] ljp: from cannons [17:38] here's the deal.... [17:39] the hh.org domain name, the servers, the names.... were all owned by CRL (compaq) [17:39] when whatsherface came in and merged hp and compaq, crl was cut loose. [17:40] george found a way to keep it all running by creating a non-profit that the stuff could be donated to, and convincing the higherups to do that [17:41] ever since that, there has been a mess of paperwork. [17:41] that his lawyers have been going over. one of the loose ends was these names. [17:42] lawyers, being who they are, told him he had to get them registered since they came from the whole crl mess [17:42] aparently, he has been spending between 15 and 20 thousand a year keeping it all up and running, and paying lawyers to clean up the mess. [17:43] have I said l hate lawyers already? [17:43] bipolar: not sure.... [17:43] ok... [17:43] * bipolar hates lawyers [17:44] bipolar: maybe you should add that to the topic :) [17:44] bipolar: I didnt quite catch you there, please repeat :-) [17:44] *** You set the channel topic to "bs is for bullshit. /me hates lawyers". [17:44] well, there you have it. [17:44] Maybe I'm missing something - why did not George France tell this publicly already before all this started to happen? [17:44] mmp: my guess is the gpe issue fogged everything up. [17:45] thats a sepreate, and messier, situation then the opie one [17:45] yes:( [17:46] mmp: I think that is something you would have to ask GF.... [17:46] hvontres|home: yes, probably :( [17:46] mmp: It seems to me, he had good intentions with hh.org, but his PR skills need some work.. [17:46] thats not to say things couldn't have been handled better... but *I* don't belever g.f. has done anything maliciously. [17:46] hvontres|home: definatly. he's a geek at heart, thown into a mess of BS. [17:47] like all of us here [17:47] * bipolar hates lawyers [17:47] * mmp now realizes that bipolar is actually right in every part of his sentences :) [17:48] * XorA|gone will admit to an anti GF bias due to being shouted at during the ltg move [17:48] XorA|gone: yes. the LTG/GPE thing really, really shafted us all [17:48] * hvontres|home wonders if the GPE mess was caused by his lawers..... [17:49] hvontres|home: I don't really know. there was just bad blood there for some reason. at this point it doesn't matter who's to blame. [17:49] * ljp still doesnt see how hosting a project means he owns the name [17:49] * mmp hopes that in either way, it will be possible to clean up the consequences correctly. [17:49] and let me reiterate it: bipolar hates lawyers. [17:49] I dont actually understand why GPE is a mess, its just a project that decided to move [17:49] (so do I) [17:49] ljp: he's not really claiming to own the name. he wants hh.org to own the tm. [17:50] he was happy to give it to me [17:50] He, and his llawyers, want the name protected. [17:50] so I guess there is stuff happening behind doors, I just got mistaken one day for a GPE developer and got shouted at [17:50] XorA|gone: there was a lot more BS there, yes :) [17:51] * XorA|gone suggests a trip to an amsterdam coffee shop for all involved including lawyers for a peace talk :-) [17:51] bipolar: well, at least we now don't have to worry about MsOpie :) [17:51] If everyone trusts me, I think I can patch things up. [17:51] hvontres|home: heh... yeah. [17:52] ljp: I wonder how many lawers we could get hopping by anouncing Opie XP :) [17:52] hahaha [17:52] wait, I think the geeks would want to burn us firs [17:53] maybe.... if not that there's always the vi/emacs debate to burn for [17:53] XorA|gone: maybe even a couple of "peace pipes" [17:53] bipolar: "emacs is not an editor, it's a way of life" [17:53] * hvontres|home prefers vi [17:54] * bipolar lights hvontres|home on fire [17:54] no debate about vi/emacs... theres no competition.. emacs is simply superior editor [17:54] I use KDevelop/Kate [17:54] * mmp personally uses nano quite often [17:54] or nano on the console :) [17:54] jinx [17:54] i use a few editors [17:55] bipolar: well, anything but Notepad :) [17:55] ljp: does this sound like a good start? can you work with it? [17:55] begrudgingly use vi because busybox has it [17:55] * hvontres|home thinks this is slipping a bit OT [17:55] yes, but i still dont see where hh.org thinks they own the name. so it that aspect , its still an issue [17:56] bipolar: I trust you...sounds like a good start...just don't turn into George II :) [17:56] ljp: I know what you mean. [17:56] ljp: yep [17:56] drw: I'd shoot myself before I change :) [17:57] ljp, I thought you knew that emacs is an OS that only lacks editor :) [17:57] ljp: I told him what was going on when we first started opie. he understands our point of view too [17:58] and how does he get by the hosting part of it, especially since the hh.org web site specifically mentioned 'projects hosted at .." [17:59] bipolar: if you do, you might fins something like this in your inbox: "When in the course of Open Source Development it becomes necessary for one group of developers to disolve the bands that have connected them....." [17:59] ljp: the problem is that some projects were solely crl people. others were hosted. I explained this too him. he understands. [17:59] *** chouimat|away is now known as chouimat. [17:59] hvontres|home: :) [17:59] * hvontres|home appologizes to Thomas Jefferson [17:59] I'm sure he just rolled over [18:00] bipolar: it's good to hear he is willing to work with you/us on this...that's not the impression I was getting from the mail thread [18:00] he does need to work on the PR side of things [18:00] drw: yes. he's no good at PR [18:01] * bipolar makes a phone call